It wants to be 2.5 when it grows up

[wingrunr]

He didn't say that you didn't have a "Stake" in it, he said that you didn't have any "rights". Which you don't.

Its clear that you are in a significant minority with your views about open-sourcing. You may very well be correct about the benefits for quality and speed of development. I certainly would not argue with any of your points, but you don't seem to get the main one that is being made by others here. The bottom line is that it's KC's to do with what he wants. He is clearly a gifted developer and he deserves our support and gratitude. He may eventually decide to go that route or he may try to take it commercial. For now, I'm just happy that he's sharing it with us.

I actually wasn't referring to Ernie's comment when I mentioned the users as stakeholders I was referring to a previous comment.

It is actually you who fails to see my point. I know that KC holds the final decision regarding Vixen. I am in no way touting that responsibility and ownership of the code be removed from him. Open sourcing Vixen would NOT remove code ownership. I am simply stating my opinion that Vixen would mature better as an open source piece of software compared to closed.

Now here is what I don't understand: I have not once taken credit away from KC. I have never badmouthed his software or expressed anything ill towards his efforts. I very much wish to see Vixen be the best software possible. In my opinion, whether or not the majority agrees with me, Vixen would mature better as an open source piece of software. This in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM degrades KC or Vixen.

I fail to understand why everyone seems to be jumping down my throat about it. This is especially since the only evidence presented to the contrary have been previous quotes by KC not wishing to open source Vixen. One of those quotes was MADE BY ME. No one here knows if his views have changed. If KC states he does not wish to open source Vixen that is perfectly acceptable. It was acceptable to me the past THREE times I asked him about it. It is his decision. That will NOT change my opinion though.

If someone would actually like to counter my arguments then go ahead. Otherwise get off your high horse.

 

[ppohlman]

I for one, welcome open discussions on any topic you wish. It can be healthy for people to understand different points of view. HOWEVER, this thread is not the place for this debate. It is supposed to be a thread for updates and information about Vixen 2.5.0.8. If you would like to continue discussing the pros/cons, options, reasons or rationale behind Vixen being closed or open source, please start a new thread in the lounge

** edit **
or continue one of the old thread about this same topic.

 

[JonathonReinhart]

Please don't tell KC what to do with HIS software, I feel he will do what he sees best for Vixen and the community, if it's closed source, so be it, I have great FREE software to use!

I fail to understand why everyone seems to be jumping down my throat about it. This is especially since the only evidence presented to the contrary have been previous quotes by KC not wishing to open source Vixen. One of those quotes was MADE BY ME. No one here knows if his views have changed. If KC states he does not wish to open source Vixen that is perfectly acceptable. It was acceptable to me the past THREE times I asked him about it. It is his decision. That will NOT change my opinion though.

If someone would actually like to counter my arguments then go ahead. Otherwise get off your high horse.

Honestly, what don't you people understand? My views are 100% in-line with those of wingrunr here. I am getting extremely tired of being chastised for something that none of us have done. No one is in Any way bashing, disprespecting, or criticizing the efforts of KC or Vixen. And no one is attempting to force KC to do anything he wants, and certainly not to TAKE ANYTHING FROM HIM! I apologize for the large size and excessive amounts of formatting, but I think it might be necessary to get this point through some people's thick retinas.

Fact: Aside from the fact that Vixen is KC's, and he has previously stated his desire to keep Vixen closed-source, Not one of you has made a single legitimate argument as to why keeping Vixen closed would be beneficial for it, or for us as a community.

You need to open your minds and realize that we are challenging is the current development model. Contrary to popular belief in this thread, it IS possible to respectfully challenge something without disrespecting it, or its creator (here Vixen, and KC). Bugs exist, and they are not getting fixed. Am I upset with KC for it? NO. He has a life aside from Vixen! He's not even being paid to do this! But the point is, there are bugs which simply aren't getting fixed. I have two bugs open in the bugtracker, which I could have fixed weeks or months ago, had I access to the sourcecode. You all say to do testing, and that's how we contribute. Well I have done testing, I have found bugs, and I have figured out how to fix them. All I want is the final step to fix it, and let everyone be happier! Is this so damn disrespectful?

From reading this thread it sounds like KC's stand on the issue has been VERY consistent.

Have you noticed that KC still hasn't replied to this thread yet with his latest views? Do you think he's really not reading these?

If people keep trying to explain how much better it would be if it became open-source, KC may get tired of hearing it and move on to another project/program and just drop the headaches. I wouldn't want to see that. I don't see why some people don't get the fact that Vixen is KC's to do with whatever he wants to do.

I don't consider him a god, but I do consider him to be the sole owner of some intellectual property. I really don't care if there are 50,000 users of the program, they have NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER to the direction it takes, nor the time it takes to get there.

Do you HONESTLY think KC would really ABANDON VIXEN because people are OFFERING TO HELP DEVELOP / IMPROVE it?? Have you lost your mind in the eggnog already?! Sole-ownership and open-source are compatible!

Who, me? Cynical??? Naaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

Perhaps if you would spend less time trying to be Cynical and more time actually reading (and comprehending) what we are saying, you would realize that you're completely off-base. Let me remind you what wingrunr said in his fantastic post:

-Vixen will be open sourced and released under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States or another like license. This license does not allow commercial uses of Vixen's code and does not allow branches to be developed and released. This will keep Vixen unified and disallow people to utilize Vixen for their own gain (something they can technically already do). Open source licenses have been upheld in US courts as valid licenses so legally this would protect Vixen.

-Source code control will be implemented. This can be either git or svn.

-KC will be the primary maintainer of the project. This means all patches to the Vixen source will go through him and be approved by him. This means he still effectively 'owns' the source of Vixen.

This means, nothing changes!! Vixen is still KC's, and he is still the man. Except that things get done more quickly, and we get to help! Not to mention source code control would eliminate any possibility of loss or corruption due to system failure, as well as allow 'bad' changes to be quickly reverted, something that is hard to do in a flat development scheme.

I apologize for the extreme length of this post, but I simply do not have the time to debate incorrect or ignorant posts one-by-one as they come in.

Let us also remember, that this is a happy community of do-it-yourself'ers with one common goal: Blinky Flashy Goodness. Let's not let emotions or opinions get in the way of that. Cheers everyone.

 

[WireWrap]

Honestly, what don't you people understand? My views are 100% in-line with those of wingrunr here.

You have my sympathy.

Fact: Aside from the fact that Vixen is KC's, and he has previously stated his desire to keep Vixen closed-source,

Oh, you noticed that????

Not one of you has made a single legitimate argument as to why keeping Vixen closed would be beneficial for it, or for us as a community.

There is no need to justify it. It's KC's, he wants it that way, and you have no legitimate argument why he should change that.

You need to open your minds and realize that we are challenging is the current development model. Contrary to popular belief in this thread, it IS possible to respectfully challenge something without disrespecting it, or its creator (here Vixen, and KC). Bugs exist, and they are not getting fixed. Am I upset with KC for it? NO. He has a life aside from Vixen! He's not even being paid to do this! But the point is, there are bugs which simply aren't getting fixed. I have two bugs open in the bugtracker, which I could have fixed weeks or months ago, had I access to the sourcecode. You all say to do testing, and that's how we contribute. Well I have done testing, I have found bugs, and I have figured out how to fix them. All I want is the final step to fix it, and let everyone be happier! Is this so damn disrespectful?

YES!!!

Have you noticed that KC still hasn't replied to this thread yet with his latest views? Do you think he's really not reading these?

No, I expect he doesn't think it worth his time to justify himself to a bunch of yammering yahoos.

Do you HONESTLY think KC would really ABANDON VIXEN because people are OFFERING TO HELP DEVELOP / IMPROVE it?? Have you lost your mind in the eggnog already?! Sole-ownership and open-source are compatible!

Not necessarily. That may be true in your opinion, but, believe it or not, others may actually have differing opinions.

I don't suggest KC would abandon Vixen because people are offering to help; but when people continually ignore his repeatedly expressed feelings, I can certainly see where it could reach a point of disgust that would make a change of priorities easy to do.

Perhaps if you would spend less time trying to be Cynical and more time actually reading (and comprehending) what we are saying, you would realize that you're completely off-base. Let me remind you what wingrunr said in his fantastic post:


This means, nothing changes!! Vixen is still KC's, and he is still the man. Except that things get done more quickly, and we get to help!

And this means what? Your "help" is more important than KC's ownership of this program??? It isn't being done quickly enough for "you" whether or not KC wants to open his property for your intrusive so-called "help"???

Not to mention source code control would eliminate any possibility of loss or corruption due to system failure, as well as allow 'bad' changes to be quickly reverted, something that is hard to do in a flat development scheme.

It's NOT your source code to control!!!

The loss (or risk of loss) is all KC's. And that's the way he wants it. Just where do you get the arrogance to suggest that KC has some "duty" to you or anyone else to fix any so-called bugs in the program. They may just be the way he wants it to work. If you don't like it, he has left a way for you to make suggestions. But don't start thinking you have any "RIGHTS" to any changes, corrections, or fixes. Try appreciating that KC has been very generous with his property and time, and doesn't need the hassles.

I apologize for the extreme length of this post, but I simply do not have the time to debate incorrect or ignorant posts one-by-one as they come in.

Obviously, anyone that doesn't agree with your demands is incorrect or ignorant. I hadn't realized this was a law of nature.

Let us also remember, that this is a happy community of do-it-yourself'ers with one common goal: Blinky Flashy Goodness. Let's not let emotions or opinions get in the way of that. Cheers everyone.

I'm very glad that KC is more tolerant than I am. I would have said "Sorry, the next update will be around May, 2015!!", and I would have said it about two weeks ago!

 

[JonathonReinhart]

WireWrap, please carry on. You're demonstrating your ignorance better than I could in a thousand lines.
And listen bud. KC's a big boy. He doesn't need your help expressing his views, because he certainly knows more about modern software development than you. A little research goes a long way.

 

[WireWrap]

WireWrap, please carry on. You're demonstrating your ignorance better than I could in a thousand lines.
And listen bud. KC's a big boy. He doesn't need your help expressing his views, because he certainly know's how this stuff works better than you ever will. Do a little research, then run your mouth.

Be glad to. I love teaching little twerps a third of my age about how things are in the real world.


My apologies to the others on here. When youngsters start thinking they have a "right" to whatever they want, it gets me a little bit irritated. When they grow up and realize others have rights as well, it makes life so much better.

 

[budude]

Gentlemen - - - cease and desist - please...

 

[Ronp]

I think enough is enough.
This tred is so far off topic ....
Insulting and bashing shall I count the rule violations There will be no more warnings!

Lets play nice or dont play here.........

 

[Ronp]

Lets consider this subject closed until KC says otherwise

 

[KC]

[Author's note: I rambled much more than I expected. Be warned.]

Can I blame the direction this has taken on Windows as well? It's a very handy target right now.

I didn't have much of a chance to get on the board last night, but after a few emails about what was going on, I made sure that getting caught up was my #1 priority. After eating. Nothing beats a hot plate of food on a cold December day.

I had no idea this topic would lead to such a passionate, um, discussion. I was getting kind of carried away in the drama until...

Let us also remember, that this is a happy community of do-it-yourself'ers with one common goal: Blinky Flashy Goodness.

That's what this effort, this whole community, was born from. I don't claim to be wise beyond my years, or even wise of my years, but that statement kinda grounded me. Thanks for that.

To the meat of the issue, shall we?

First and foremost.... I'm not leaving. Ever. Try to make me leave, just try. Not gonna happen. Not this year, at least. 2.5 has thrown me a curve ball and thrown my confidence in it into the crapper (I know I have no one but myself to blame, and I'm good with that), but I'm not going to let that throw me off the trail. If, if that were to ever happen, I'm not about to presume that it means Vixen needs to die with my interest. I know we have a healthy base of developers in this community and those that were interested would inherit it.

As for opening the source...I have nothing against open source. I think it's a great for people to learn and to contribute to something they believe in. It's also a great way to diversify the source, allowing problems to be solved in ways that a single author is not always likely to consider.

I can say with certainty that 2.5 will not be opened. There are reasons. I don't assume that the reasons are good enough for everyone to accept, but they are the ones I have to offer. If you want my reasons then read the next paragraph, but know that it may get a bit personal and I don't want to spread the dribble where it ain't wanted. If not, feel free to skip the paragraph entirely.

Starting the dribble...
The biggest reason I had initially, but has since waned with time, is that I was burned by my involvement with an open-source project once. It went on to become a successful little program in its specialized niche as a closed, for-profit product. But that was years ago, so it only bugs me a little bit.
Secondly, the initial design and architecture did not anticipate 90% of what it does now. Many changes were made with the assumption that they would be one-off implementations and then proven very wrong. As a result, the code needs a COMPLETE rewrite and is actually undergoing one.
Lastly, and okay, this is way too personal, but in the spirit of full disclosure so that you know where I'm coming from if you're reading this...I've loved working on this project ever since we all started slapping it together. The couple of years before this there has been some crap in my personal life that I didn't exactly enjoy. Don't worry, I won't share the gorey details -- everyone's got crap in their own lives, mine is no worse than another's. One thing I could count on was that I could fire up my computer, start up my IDE, and lose myself in Vixen for a couple hours, a night, a week, whatever. To this day, I look forward to staying up until the wee hours of the morning with nothing but a laptop and some rocking music (or Christmas music this month). It was kind of a personal refuge. I know, I know, get the Kleenex out.
...ending the dribble.

Future possibility? Oh heck yeah, never say never. With the rewrite is a complete change in how it's being implemented, a foundational and architectural change that much better lends itself to more cooks in the kitchen. I won't say yes or no, but I'm not closed off to the possibility in the future, just not yet, not with the current implementation. I don't assume that my code is the best code (often times the opposite until experience teaches me better), nor do I always have the best solutions to problems. I'm fully aware that there are more-capable developers in this community than I, I don't kid myself. Just...not yet.

This is why you don't get me started talking about Vixen.

 

[pete]

Hey KC.... Thank you for Vixen and Merry Christmas.

pete

 

[kostyun]

KC - thanks for a wonderful program - it is leaps and light years ahead of what we had before.

 

[daviddth]

In all honesty KC opening the source is not something I care about as long as there is someone (in this case you) working on the code to add features, tweak code and remove/spray/squash or kill the bugs that we enjoy finding. Vixen is to you what my websites are to me - a way of zoning out of reality for a while & relaxing (in an unconventional way)

Anyway I hope you have a very Merry Christmas and remember that somewhere in the world, every minute of the day Vixen is running someones display and making them proud to have made the world a slightly brighter place for others.

 

[bobkeyes]

I'm a newbie. This is my first year at this. I must say that, in my 66 years, it is unprecedented that anyone would put in so much hard work and effort on any piece of software and then just simply hand it to the users for free.

Now add all the babble about opening the code to others!!

One of the things that I have admired about this forum in the few months I have been a part of it, is the spirit of giving and friendship. The words that have been used in some of the previous posts can sting and leave real scratches in the paint.

I do hope each of you, who want the code, can come to grips with the fact that KC conceived it, KC birthed it, KC is now helping it grow with a community of helpers like you all. And, he is most appreciative of your help. But, he is not ready to put it up for adoption, nor is he ready to abandon it during adolescence.

End of Story.

I join the hosts of others that only say, THANK YOU KC. I hope your Christmas is every bit as good as your program. If it is then look out for one spectacular Christmas.

 

[deplanche]

Reason #421 KC rocks - He actually comes out and admits v2.5 has issues, and gives us a fix to convert files back down to v2.1. When was the last time you got that from any software?

 

[ctmal]

OK. This is my first year doing this and had build 2 Renard ss8 and 2 ss24 controllers. I was priding myself for not having to ask any questions or help, but as you can see, I have broken down and I am pleading for help. I have the latest version of Vixen and I have 4 sequences that I run. I have the program start the 4 sequences at 5:30 and repeat until 10:30. It can repeat for several hours, but all the sudden, it will get a "Renard Dimmer modified (Access to the port COM 8 is denied)". This can happen at 6:24 or at 10:00. There is no pattern to when this happens and it will do it only once a night. The last sequence, I have the last 5 seconds with all the lights off. I have "0" overlap between the songs and do not have any other programs running on my laptop during this time. I have read trough all the threads for the past two weeks. What the HECK is going on? I am about to go out of town this weekend and want to keep my lights going even though I am not there. Has anyone else experienced this?

Everybody here is more than willing to help you out, just start a new thread and you'll get all the help you need.

 

[David_AVD]

I can say with certainty that 2.5 will not be opened. There are reasons. I don't assume that the reasons are good enough for everyone to accept, but they are the ones I have to offer.

As a fellow freeware developer (using Delphi 7 Professional in my case), I know what you're going through. I have been asked on occasion to release the code of my freeware, but so far I have declined.

One reason in my case was that my code uses some commercial libraries, and any other developer would have to buy them before they could even start. Also, like you, I've had to rewrite major chunks of code just to make the code extendable and incorporate feature suggestions from users. This can make it hard to use a shared approach.

I've not used your software yet (this is my first real dabble in automated lighting), but have downloaded it and it looks quite impressive. You must be very proud (and rightly so) to have so many users out there who appreciate the effort that's gone into Vixen. Keep up the good work!

 

[P. Short]

Just a thought, but if people want to help with programming, maybe there is something that could be done in the way of designing/coding/etc some automated test suites for Vixen. This, of course, is based on being totally ignorant of what exists at the moment.

 

[wingrunr]

Phil, that's a very good idea. Perhaps some type of unit testing architecture?

KC, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on architecture changes. One thing I have been throwing around in my head for awhile is separating the "playback" engine from the sequencing engine. This would also allow for creating a playback engine that would support *nix architectures (via Mono). This would also perhaps allow for easier development since the two are (I believe) only related via the output plug in interface. Just a thought.

Can I blame the direction this has taken on Windows as well? It's a very handy target right now.

Of course. Windows is a handy target for everything!

To everyone else: it has been brought to my attention that I threw some lingo around that may not be immediately clear to non-programmers. I believe this is very much a key reason the reaction to my comments were so emotional. I will list/simply define the terms below. If you would like clarification on them please feel free to PM me:

-open source
-means the source code of a project is viewable by the public. Commercial use, being part of the public domain, and ownership of the intellectual property depends upon the license the code is released under. These kinds of rules are unique to open source code and is not like releasing a song or something else for free.

-source code control
-99% sure KC uses this already. This is a software system that allows source code to be stored in versions. It allows for specific files to be "rolled back" to previous versions (ie remove new changes) in case recent changes break something in the program.

-code ownership
-means the person/organization/whatever who is charge of the code. This includes it's quality, it's efficiency, and all other things software related.

-stakeholders
-those that hold a significant stake in a piece of software. This is almost directly correlated with a stakeholder in a company (like someone who owns some stock) however software stakeholders are not defined on a monetary basis.

I hope this clears things up some. I have put significant thought into my views and would appreciate it if people would, in the future, contact me for clarification instead of labeling them as ungrateful and juvenile.

KC, I hope you know I meant absolutely no disrespect towards you and your software.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to set up a "Future of Vixen" type thread?

 

[KC]

One thing I have been throwing around in my head for awhile is separating the "playback" engine from the sequencing engine.

That has been one of the original design goals -- decoupling the UI from execution so that the front-end application is no longer needed for scheduled execution.

I hope you know I meant absolutely no disrespect towards you and your software.

Didn't think that at all. You saw a need and you had a possible solution.

Perhaps it would be beneficial to set up a "Future of Vixen" type thread?

I can see such a topic getting pretty extensive pretty quick. That would be a lot of information in a single thread, possibly involving many different types of conversations. A sub-forum may be better, so that it can be more organized. I had mentioned to JonathonReinhart last night that once I get it clear in my head what I want to do and why, I would like to involve others to bounce it all off of. First I want it straight in my head so that I can speak intelligently as to why I did what I did instead of "I just wanted to", when possible. It wouldn't be opening the source, but it's a step in such a direction.

David_AVD, deplanche, bobkeyes, David, Frank, Pete...thank you all for the kind words and warm wishes!